http://releasethereality.com/jodo.html

The Psychoshamanism - Beyond Enlightments

Interview with Alexandro Jodorowsky by Akira Natchi


Counting down into New Century, this interview was realized at his home in
12th district of Paris, shortly after the Christmas day. "El Topo", "Holy Mountain",
"Tusk",,, one of the most influensive movie's director in the world. Author of Comics
"l'Incal", "les Technopères" & "La Caste des Méta Barons". The Master of Marseille
Tarot, Phychomagician, Supream Alchemist ......
Since the '70, His art works have always been the Journey into the world of
"unconsciousness" to show us understructure of symbolism.
"The Man" was on the front of me. Sitting in a big sofer, face2face, I started
asking the questons to him . I was, however,feeling as I was in the consultation room
of the Psychologist where I've been before in my Tantric Dream.
His four cats approached me coquettishly, one by one they came up on my
knees as Quick Silver Messengers.
"What illumination will Jodorowsky show me at this time ?"
I've ever had a same sensation just before Ayahuasca or Peyote ceremonies.
"Am I sick ?", "I'm being healed by him ?", "To be healed or not to be
healed, is this problem ?" "What do I really want to know now ?"
This was the great moment when "The Light being" closed in, my Over-
Entheogenized head's warping towards "2012". Searching the heights and depths of
our inner space, we kept talkin' together like "The Machine, ELF".
January 2001, This 71 year's old Chilien is about to begin a tour of his latest
Opera in Italy.
Watch out This Dangerous Saint !


©P.CAMOIN &A. JODOROWSKY

Akira : First of all, I must confess that I have been a fan of your Movies for many
years, Thank you very much to have given me wonderful Joy & Enlightment through
the films.
I heard You are preparing a new movie. I can't wait !


Jodorowsky : I am starting financial Co-production with a French TV program
producer. This new film's principle character is Marilyn Manson (
http://www.marilynmanson.net/), the rock star, this is the first one coming out..


A: Gee ! Mariryn Manson !?!?!

Your movies from the '60 are always the projection of your own esoteric life-
experiences, I guess. For example, I see "Zen" experience on "El topo", "Grudjieff" &
Sufism" (http://www.gurdjieff.org/) on "Holy mountain". How about the Life issues in
your next creation ?


J: I think, all Artist are like this. The creation is always the projection of an artist's
personal life. As for my life, I started with "Tarology", and next "Psychogeneralogy",
and "psychomagic", now "Psychoshamanism", that's the thing.


A: Psychoshamanism ! Oh, it sounds "wicked", Masta.
You are from Chili, Mr Alexandro. Can you talk about your personal experiences with
shamans in South-Central America ?


J: I'm finishing my new book of 400 pages about this subject ! This is, however, such
a long long story to talk about here.
The title is "Lancer la realité" (release the reality).
When I used to do "psychomagic", I worked much with Shamans - amazonian,
mexican, indian, even Charlatans ! But these shamanism & archimism are very old
and go back a long way into the past. But now there are genetical modification
technic in biology as well as other chemstry technics in atomic level.
Shamanism is the modification of consciousness. As for our reseaching the primitive
sources, when the rational civilisation was established and the city was built long ago
in Italy, we losted these all secrets, therefore now we are going to the Amazon
Forest, a primitive world to find the lost truth, then, looking for hallucinogenic
mushroom, Ayahuasca, peyote,,, and more.
I wonder "Who could have known if the magic would move our rational world
forward or backward ?" "Rational means advanced or postponed ?"
I say this is "Advanced". The primitive aspect provokes our rational position. This
rational position eliminates the superstitions. They work each other like a filter or
somersorts. I don't mean which one is on the top of the other one, but if our rational
position pass through "Psychomagic", we would be healed, not as a Fantasy, we
arrive at the result of "Thinking" metamorphosed without nostalgia or inferiority
complex for primitive life. It takes us back to the truth.We need to return to the
source.
Down to the source, not just for identifying where it is, otherwise we just benefit from
it. In my studying the magic of Mesopotamie, Aztec, Egyptian,,, the whole history of
Magic, the whole history of Shamanism, the thing who is useful for me is applicability
for psychoanalitic therapy. Therapy for the people in the rational position.
I think, acctually there is a big primitive movement trying to break into our rational
position. Everybody trys to go into the Amazon forest, Only Amazon indians can
handle these healing products and live in such an environment.
Today in our developped civilization, they are just salesman. But we need to buy from
them too. Don't think they are the Masters. We are the master of our own rationality.
It's rationality who constructs the world, isn't it ?. But don't think rationality itself is
the rational structure of the world. Because, though it has a certain quality , it has
made so many mistakes . Huge mistakes ! Rationality has, however, a quality we
could absorb and assimilate.


A: Indeed, we as human beings need to find a good equilibrium in "Intelligence" &
"Wisdom". How can we learn from past traditions today ?


J : Personaly, I say that I am essencialy Anti-Folkloric !
For many years, I have believed that all tradition is poison. This poison assists
tradition itself. Therefore, tradition has interested me as a material. But, if there are
no technology in tradition, I am not interested at all, why return to the place one has
already visited, you know.
I want to go further, this is the work that interests me.


A: When I started learning Entheogen a long time ago, the books of Carlos
Castanedas used to fascinate me so much. Always he is the Best "Story-Teller" I've
ever known. But later I found that there are some scientific faults in this fiction,
especialy that his latest works about "Body energy" before his recent death was
complitely "New Age" style, I will say, it fucked me up rather than disapointed me in
the end !


J: Ridiculus ! Such an Ancient Sorcier's Stuff, it's ridiculous !


A: Definitely.


J: Before him, Chinese invented much better ones like Tai-chi or Kun-Fu which have
existed for thousands years. Castaneda did wonderful works just in Ethnology.
I had wanted to stop reading his book in the middle of it. Because, he proposed that
"I knows the secrets which You will never know...", "You could never know the entire
world, you can say where you are as far as you will not be able to know where you
are...". What a hell ?!?!


A: Yeah, this phrase drove me Mad for a week.


J: In that decade, I saw many crazy American people have gone to Mexico to find
"Don Juan" & eat Peyote ! Castaneda was following the fashion in that period. Drug
was fashionable, The fashion was "talking about peyote". When the movement
against drug happened, he said it didn't need peyote. When the revolution of
feminism was starting, he put the female sorcier in his story.
He was always good to capture American's morale at the right moment, but he
invented Nothing ! He proposed the things,,, but I, I don't want to convert myself
into a little star, like that one, he says, who's leaving to that Mountain at the end of
the story.
It's Ridiculus !!! (
http://pub4.ezboard.com/fsustainedreaction98489forumenfranais.showMessage?topic
ID=9.topic)


A: Mr. Alexandro, I am calling you "a Multimedia Poet" - Movies, Books, Comics,
Tarot, Comedian,,, and more, Father of sons. Your works are crossover into the
different artisic domaines. I imagine that it's really hard work to keep on trasforming
the archaic wisdoms into rational structure of our modern world, artisiticaly.
Psychoshamanism could be a total fusion of Tradition and High-Tech ?


J: I am thinking the one thing. It would sound Bizzare for you... Shaman Uses the
nature he lives with. He uses every plants he lives with, and


A: Animals and Minerals.


J: That's it ! This is the reason why you can't place him anywhere else to carry out his
power. If You bring Amazon Shaman to Roma, it's ridiculus. Urban Shaman doesn't
have his own Plant. What does he have with himself ? He has a Mobile phone and,,,


A: portable computer and Degital Camera with solar bettery ?


J: You can flatter somebody by mobile phone, show a miracle by T.V. set, make a
shamanic sesssion in a nice car ? Archic Shaman in the city without his Power ? The
different way of Healing should be found. The different shaman in different place.
Don't need to go as far as the Amazon forest to find a shaman. Just find, in your own
environment, somebody who can open your consciousness. The truth is not far away.
If you can't find it here, there is no truth here, nor elsewhere.


A: Shoping through the inter-net became quite popular nowdays, many people are
buying medical plants, even Ayahuasca from South American Net-suppliers by credit
card. we need much time to learn from nature, but sometimes it seems our
civilisation is developping too fast & in a very pretentious way. Oneday we will be able
to buy the shamanic tools in McDonalds ?!?!?


J: Our civilization is sick. We are all sick, while being sick with poison, ourbody system
makes "Antibodys" to heal itself. Certain societies who are sick, will create certain
people who can work as antibodys. I think All sickness is coming from the
interdiction. The environment, the consacretion, the tradition,,, all has the certain
interdictions. This makes our consciousness lost, on the level of "Sence" of
Consciousness. When all levels of consciousness is stressed, the sick increase.
Therefore antibody sow a seed of "Consciousness" in the people to work or develop
the level of it right away. This is our antibody.


A: We are all a part of Cosmic Mission, aren't we?


J: Yes, Your life is one of antibody. We need salvation, for example, celebration with
Magic Mushrooms. But this is Antibody too. This is the reason why I am doing this
Interview with you. Every Action to search our conscious level would save our
humanity. Because, if not, We would be in Danger.
The way to get out of our problem is neither "Political" or "religious", it's to "Take
Consiousness". To take consciousness, even if good or bad, anyway it's mutaion of
the captivated world.


A: When I say "The Future", I always imazine the world in the huge spaceship
leaving to go to the other planets like Sirius, Pleiades,,, Andromeda 33.
Surviving more than 5 light years long long trip, passing generations after
generations of Human Being, a couple of centurys later, Hyper-Technology will make
it realizable to bring all our "Artificial Nature" together. The human life span could
increase upto 150 years.
So I'm asking myself, while my cosmic voyage, what music I will listen to, what art I
will create, how I enjoy myself...... all in virtual nature.


J: Good, Your metaphore is Cool. But you are analysing your metaphore, aren't you ?
Don't forget that you are here on the earth, this is a big spaceship itself.


A: Starship, Mother Earth.


J: You know, It's possible that You make your cloth first then you can eat later.
Making the costume like a fashion show, and you eat it, with the edible material. The
earth is an eatable spaceship. It's easy to eat and acctually we are doing it. This
means the earth is not our definite spaceship. Simply like a little worm in a fruit, we
are eating earth. When eating up all, find another Starship, and another Starship,
and another Starship ! But it seems to take some centurys, I think.


A: How about our Human life and itself-Mutation ? You said we can't take the
shaman out of his natural habitat, so what do we bring into this spaceship as
"Wisdom" ? We have encoded wisdom into art and language like a program for 1
million years human history, one day the truth will be perfectly trasmissionable from
generation to generation in rationaly developed civilization ?


J: Oh, It needs so much work to arrive on that level of consciousness.
This is our work as an assistant in the unverse for creation of new consciousness.
The Life started on earth from mineral, and after animals wanted to participate, it's
terrible, and plants, vegital world is a synthesized war. We are the first Being who are
capable to have the moment to make a peace with creatures. First, animal never
makes peace, Plants not at all, mineral is the effect of material itself. We are the first
who has wasted peace on the level of consciousness too. We don't have a peace yet,
just begining to see it.


A: Advanced mammal in the water, like whales & dolphins are much more peaceful &
sociable than homo-sapiens, I think. For millions years they have had a global
communication availability like our internet system.


J: In the same species they make a peace, but if you put whale and shark together,
sharks eat whales. They don't know how to make peace between different species.
We are the first to make a peace with plants, with tigers, and with tarantulas on the
level of consciousness. we are the first. Between tarantulas they know peace, but not
with others. We are the first to have thinked like that. We all human could be
sympathic towards other species.
I live with my 4 cats, they don't eat me, I don't eat them. It's Miracle !
We are the first who can solve the problem to detect our human species-self. Not
every human can do it yet... but if the one can have antibodys to be real "Human",
it's enough. In any condition, he will open our consciousness to creation.


A: Between our human beings, we still have many visible or unvisible barriers to
understand each other. For instance, when I come to your lecture of tarot
(www.camoin.net), some people are surprised at me, my existance, because I'm not
Europian. People believes "Tarot = catholique = Mediterraian culture = Europian
Community's menthality". They don't understand the reason why I am interested in
Tarot. It's true that, Menthalty is a deep consciousness cultivated in own nature, I
simply love to share the atmosphere & good vibes in which you heal the people by
tarot.


J: Tarot is a language, but an optical language, this is another form of language,
who is commnicated by image. Generaly rationaity is comunicated by word, not by
image. When we communicated by image, it can be much closer to conciousness. It's
the language which effects directly on consciousness. This is not the machine to tell
your future, if so, it's charlatan ! I see the person, and we find his past together, past
and after, presence. I am not healing the person, I just find his problem by tarot.
When I find it, it's me to being healed ! I see the person for therapy.


A: In your movie, "Holy Mountain", You played as a "Guru" teaching the seekers their
spiritual path. I truly love the last scene of this movie. After the hard disciplines,
When you & they arrived on the top of that "Holy Mountain", they found that the
masters waiting for them are dolls & all is farce ! Suddenly showing all backstage of
film making, you scream that "Stop the Camera ! This is just a film. Now the real life
is waiting for us !".
I understand that you wanted to show us an irony, that the practise for spiritual
enlightment to find the truth is very important, but the most important thing is to
realize it in our own real life.


J: You know, I used to be fascinated to search the enlightment.
Basicaly what IS enlightment ?
For example, if there is one person to look for "enlightment" like us, so we can say,
he "is enlightened", he searchs "his enlightment", he "is enlightening", he "has
enlightened himself",,, but what does this mean ? I can't understand anything. How
can I find what I don't know ? I'm looking for enlightment that I don't know ? It's not
possible !
How can it happen if enlightment doesn't exist within me previously ? These all are a
big legend of ancient orient. I could say Buddah is an idiot !


A: Pardon me ? you're saying Buddah is an IDIOT ?


J: yeah, we can call him an idiot, can't we ?
He is the son of big aristocratic family. He was anguished for all beautiful things. He
was anguished for dying, death is beautiful. He's anguished for being old, Growing
old is beautiful. He's anguished for sick. Sickness is nessesary, because the sickness is
our master. He's anguished over poverty, the poverty is nessesary to find power. He's
anguished for everything the most beautiful in his life. He's anguished for mortality,
he tried to escape from life. He looked for reincarnation. This is the escape from life.
But the thing is really "Life", the thing is "mortality".
These are all POESY ! you know. This poesy is the destruction of mortality.
Buddah escaped from indivisuality, there are no "I". Of course, there is "I". It's not
true ! In the humanity of Buddah, There is a Poison ! He poisoned us.
We must go further from him.
There is a big movement of New Age to learn from the humanity of Buddism, but it's
out of date ! "I'm Buddist.", when the occidental people say, it means nothing more.
If you go to China or India, You will see many idiots there, many many idiots ! Every
enlightment of Buddism is an idiot ! Buddah is an idiot ! Everything he tried is an idiot
! He was just a Prince of aristocratic family, an idiot. So a lot of good things were
burned out by the war & violence in Buddism, like Millions of death in Catholisism.


A: Everytime I meet your EXTREAM expressions in your art work, one word "FOOL"
comes to mind.


J: The FOOL is a master of the world. Everything is serving him. Interest, court,
reality,,,etc, all should face the joke. This is your service. Everything were created to
say jokes to make a laugh. Everything is a JOKE !


A: Through understanding my own fool & madness, Can I find what I truly want to
do ?


J: How old you are ?


A: I'm 36.


J: I'm 71. when you are 36, Hyper-Young, You can't see the truth. You have so
much hormone. In your over-hormonized body, you have your need for sex, power,
you entreat all what you really want. You are in the middle of your own madness, in
the madness of many lives.
Free your hands from them, they will be given to you. when you know who you are,
you know "giving back all". One thing will arrive after illumination, is to know "giving
back". "Now I know "giving back", O.K., I will give back everything, it's enough to
search." "The thing arrived to me is just the thing arrived, it's good, if not, it's still
good."
Hahaha,,,I'm lying to enlighten you !


A: This is my last & the most esoteric question to you. You have been always with
very beautiful & charming women. Can you tell me What your personal secret to
have these woman is ?


J: I don't know which ones you are talking about ......
(His beautiful wife came into our interview.)


J: Indeed, I have had beautiful women. The secret is, It's not in having a woman. it's
in making a couple, Making a couple open-minded & free. Don't go to hunting or
fishing.
I have never hunted them, My women have always "arrived" to me.


A: Wow ! Women arrive like an illumination !


Now I understood the reason why the history's always ending up in Myth.
Yooh, Masta. Beyond Enlightments, What's Next, Maan ?

Hats off to Jodo !!!



********************


Incomplited Biography :


*Films
Fanda & Lis (1967)
El Topo (1970)
Holy Mountain (1973)
Tusk (1979)
Santa Sangre (1989)
The rainbow thief (1990)

*Comics
Alef-Thau With Arno
Young John Difool W/Zoran Janjetov
The Passion of Diosamante W/J-Claude Gal
The Saga of Alexander W/Silvio Cadelo
The white Lama W/Georges Bess
The Eyes of The Cat W/Moebius
The INCAL W/Moebius
The Madwoman of the Sacred Heart W/Moebius
The Metabarons W/Gimenez
The TechnoPriests W/Janjetou
Magalex W/Beltran
Moon Face W/Boucq
Le tresor de l'ombre W/Boucq
Juan Solo W/De la Fuente
After The Incal W/Moebius
One-Arm Bouncers W/Boucq

*Internet-Sites
http://www.visuelco.fr/jodo/perso.htm
http://www.hotweird.com/jodorowsky/
http://jodorow.free.fr/jodorowsky/
http://www.camoin.com/
http://www.humano.com/en/contents/html/index2.html
http://www.libe.fr/quotidien/portrait/jodorowski.html
http://www.kilima.com/jodorowsky/cj-pg-index-eng.html



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